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Joined on 12 авг 2003
Total posts: 84
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Couple ranking system
11 марта 2004 г. 16:07
Janine,
I don't see why there should be resistance. There's not really any ranking for the majority of competitors, so i imagine it will be welcomed by most people. It will also be a much more intelligent system than the EADA ranking and fulfil a very different role (e.g. EADA ranking will still be there to chose national represenatives..)
As for the work required... Danesportinfo.net seems to already be doing most of the hard work that is required (collecting the results). The only addition would be to make this more comprehensive! There are not that many competitions in the UK (maybe 2 a week or so) so a couple of volunteers should manage this. The difficult thing will be to get the organisers to cooperate as one needs to get hold of results and names... I agree that ID numbers would help massively!
Anyway, I think it's all very exciting, and I'm also not afraid to stand by suggestions with my name. I don't see the world as cynically (yet ;)) as some posters on other boards seem to, and i think that 95% of people involved in uk dancesport genuinely want things to improve!
Robin
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Joined on 12 ноя 2003
Total posts: 41
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Couple ranking system
11 марта 2004 г. 18:58
Hi Robin,
Hopefully you are right and I am just being pessimistic about possible resistance to change. Certainly when we started all this it was never my intention to tread on anyone's toes and I do agree that there is no reason why we should worry about overlapping the EADA system which does not concern itself with pre-champ competitors and below. I am very excited by the prospect of participating in a kind of league table and it adds meaning to all those Sundays spent slogging it out against the same faces on the circuit - at least if we persevere we stand a chance of chalking up a few meaningful points!
Of course one way or another dancesportinfo.net will have to collect additional results from now on, but as you say this should be possible with a few volunteers. Once we have opened up lines of communication with comp organisers it should become much easier. ![Smile [:)]](/emoticons/emotion-1.gif) Fellow competitors who I have sounded out about this think it is a great idea!
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Joined on 19 ноя 2002
Total posts: 76
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Couple ranking system
11 марта 2004 г. 20:33
This is potentially a fantastic idea. If people can get hooked on it then surely they would come to the site more anyway. If then there could be lots of extra comment and review that is only accessible by paying a small subscription fee (or larger to get a regular printed version) then you have a revenue stream as well...
In fact several things could come with the subscription:
- access to more detailed news and reviews
- a profile page with more features, e.g. video clips and pictures that could be shown to friends
- discounts to a dance supplier of some sort who could be persuaded to sponsor the effort
- access to some video clips of competitions. These could be made view-only, and perhaps a few made available each month to free users but the whole catalogue available only to paying users
Just a few thoughts - I'm sure people could come up with more. None of these are particularly impossible and if people contribute legitimate video clips/photos/results then they could be given free subscriptions and maybe even be paid per sample/clip/set.
The huge benefit of this system is that it has an easy international audience. Profile pages could show dancesportinfo.net ranking, plus any national and IDSF rankings. Subscriptions can be fairly easily administered by credit card payment systems which are much easier on the internet than ever before. If it really takes off then there could be an international event where the highest ranking competitors in each field are invited. Maybe even IDSF would be interested?
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Joined on 14 фев 2001
Total posts: 1 956
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Couple ranking system
12 марта 2004 г. 2:45
Guys - what you are saying is very interesting, unfortunately you do not realize what type of problems we have :( This is a public forum, so let me stop here - you can contact me personally if you wish or we can meet on chat to discuss details.
Anyway, see at http://www.dancesportinfo.net/DisplayRating.aspx - it's an initial version, so you may not be happy with results. Minimum number of results to to stop couples who done one or two competitions and were lucky. I think we should rate couples who have at least 4-5 results, but I am open to suggestions
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Joined on 19 ноя 2002
Total posts: 76
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Couple ranking system
12 марта 2004 г. 6:09
Well from what I can see this looks very good indeed. From a personal view looking at Latin Am. in England then I feel I'm in the right place anyway! It looks much more reliable than the EADA tables anyway.
The international rankings look about right at the moment too. Can you modify the output so that it displays a rank number next to the list?
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Joined on 12 авг 2003
Total posts: 84
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Couple ranking system
12 марта 2004 г. 9:07
Wow, that's very exciting! Would you mind publishing the actual formula you used in the end including new couples, scaling for large events etc?
The rating seems to work very well indeed... I checked a few couples using your "compare couples" feature and the order as well as the point difference seems intuitively right from the results in most cases, despite there being only one ranking number all the way from intermediate up to the top IDSF couples.
I think for new couples there should be a "provisional rating" that is clearly indicated as such. In terms of the algorithm their scores should change more readily the first few events. I quite like the idea of giving the user the option to select them or not... Maybe just a check-box for including couples with less than 3 results (similar to the "finished couples") would do the trick!
Robin
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Joined on 14 фев 2001
Total posts: 1 956
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Couple ranking system
12 марта 2004 г. 13:38
Funny enough it is pure ELO implemented. I have published it for you for further improvements. See it as an alpha testing. Page will be a bit different as well. It is just for testing.
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Joined on 19 ноя 2002
Total posts: 76
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Couple ranking system
14 марта 2004 г. 13:57
I've been checking the listings for English Amateur Latin dancers and this system seems to give an unreasonable high rating to certain couples who have done a lot of pre-championship and intermediate competitions despite not having ever beaten several couples below them who only compete in Amateur and are in fact, significantly better. Just as an example, Kevin Weatherly and Julie Flintham are listed as about number 19 in England, where someone like Danny Stowell and Holly Woolcott are number 22, which isn't really realistic knowing the two couples...
Any idea how this happens?
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Joined on 14 фев 2001
Total posts: 1 956
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Couple ranking system
14 марта 2004 г. 19:38
That's the problem with rating like ELO. It assigns a value for a person, not a place in the country. It's rating, not ranking. Person who never competed against sombody stronger will have high rating (big fish in a small pond). As much as it gives wrong impression - it may encourage people to compete in Novice, Intermediate and other competitions - rather than going straight to open. It is difficult to compare two couple who never competed against each other. If Danny and Holly went for one pre-champ or intermediate comp they would correct others ratings. If Kevin is rarely competing in open (BTW they were in the same round as Danny and Holly in UK Open Rising Star!) - how can we compare them. Unless we introduce event rating - which is a problem by itself.
I am not defending existing system - I am trying to show the problem which I cannot resolve
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Joined on 19 ноя 2002
Total posts: 76
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Couple ranking system
15 марта 2004 г. 15:44
Having read up on ELO it looks like this problem is normally solved by giving competitors some ballpark starting rankings. In order to do this here you'd have to find some automatic way of rating events based on the competitors taking part.
Using your current rankings for competitors could you try ranking the competitions themselves by producing a mean score of the finalists? I wonder if this would show show a clear difference between english amateur, pre-champ and intermediate events at least?
Having done this you could give couples a starting rank based on the average points score of the best final they have reached, or something like that.
I'm a little out of practice with my statistics so someone will have to verify this isn't insane :)
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